tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4299230645606646130.post991864496488215099..comments2023-06-13T01:13:12.250-07:00Comments on Should I circumcise?: What if mom & dad knew better but didn't do better?Jeff in AZhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00008630175548804302noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4299230645606646130.post-55796237708941933582013-12-01T18:05:46.971-08:002013-12-01T18:05:46.971-08:00It sounds like both of you did everything you coul...It sounds like both of you did everything you could. It's a hard reality that some people are going to choose to pursue circumcising their child no matter how much heartfelt information and persuasion they are offered. The desire to circumcise is usually driven by cultural and/or religious beliefs and these are notorious for running deep. Sometimes I remind myself that we are riding the crest of one of the first waves of change on this subject. It will take time but as the movement for protecting infant boys' rights gains momentum circumcision will eventually become illegal and circumcision "conversations" like this will be unnecessary in all but the most extreme circumstances.Jeff in AZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00008630175548804302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4299230645606646130.post-15664473336108757162013-11-30T14:10:24.463-08:002013-11-30T14:10:24.463-08:00This is an especially sore subject for me. Owen an...This is an especially sore subject for me. Owen and I tried so much to share information with his cousin (whom he is very close to, or was anyway) and his pregnant partner. We mailed a big package of information, which I found out when I asked him about it a couple months later, they did not even open. So then we spoke to them in person and we shared info via the computer. <br /><br />The personal conversations between Owen and his cousin seemed to make the most impact, he really seemed to be coming around. But the pregnant partner, pretended to listen to me, gave comebacks (like her brother had to be circumcised as a teen because he couldn't keep it clean, HIV risk, etc.) and finally she straight out told me to stop giving her information and it was their (HER) choice. <br /><br />Ultimately they cut the baby. It was a crushing blow. I wondered what I could have done differently. Maybe I came on too strong in talking to the female partner. Maybe I shared too much of my personal pain at seeing it happen to my 2nd son, and the complications they had to endure. Maybe I could have found a way to make the idea of leaving the baby intact fall in line with something she already believed (because people ultimately find evidence to support what they already believe more often than being swayed to an opposite opinion.) <br /><br />I don't know maybe it was just a matter of the female in this situation being very strong willed, wouldn't have anyone telling her what to do, and digging her heels in. Maybe there wasn't much I could have done differently. Ultimately it IS HER MISTAKE, and HIS for not being able to stand up to her to protect his son. I feel bad for Owen's cousin. I think he wasn't one to make waves with his partner at the time, but I think the decision hit him harder than he'll ever be able to talk about...<br /><br />Thank you for taking this topic on Jeff. It is a hard one. One that every person who takes on this goal of sharing this information will eventually face. It can be depressing, debilitating even, if you let it. It is good to know that this is a shared experience that we can talk to other understanding people about. Jenny Vaughnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01699403593880658586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4299230645606646130.post-30847858647146710222012-07-02T07:44:54.346-07:002012-07-02T07:44:54.346-07:00This is an interesting point. Being unequivocal a...This is an interesting point. Being unequivocal as you put it is important; circumcision is after all a humans rights violation. Here's the thing, though, in my experience if you come on too strong at first people tend to dig their heels in. This is human nature: people don't like to be talked into things, particularly when their children are concerned. It's all too easy for them to just label us as fanatics and then not let any of the information in. Perhaps I'm sensitive to this issue because before my son was born I didn't think circumcision was a big deal either. Another factor is your proximity to the person both distance-wise and relationship-wise. I can tell you right now that if the best man at my wedding were to plan the circumcision of his child I would go to the hospital to stop it if I had to. They'd have to arrest me. It's more difficult to go to these lengths with someone you have only a passing acquaintance with. That said, I think any kind of information offered in any way is always helpful to Intactivism. I talked to someone a few weeks ago who is due to deliver later this month. She and her husband had elected not to find out the sex of the baby so they had not even thought about circumcision yet. The more people who at least think about it before the papers are put in front of them the more that will say no. Perhaps even "Hell no!"Jeff in AZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00008630175548804302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4299230645606646130.post-77587915131683764372012-06-28T01:50:04.292-07:002012-06-28T01:50:04.292-07:00I've had similar things happen. I sympathize g...I've had similar things happen. I sympathize greatly. <br />My philosophy is this:<br /><br />If you circumcise your child out of ignorance, I understand and don't blame you.<br />If you knew better, but you do it anyway, you are not someone I want to be friends with any longer.<br /><br />I used to think that the best approach was careful diplomacy and presenting the facts as best as possible--you know, not wanting to be that "overbearing person". But really, after trying that approach a number of times and failing at least once, I now know it's wrong-headed. It just doesn't work. For those who are open to you, they will listen no matter what. For those who are closed minded, you need the direct approach. For me it's crucial because I simply will have nothing to do with a parent who circumcises when they know better. To be fair to them, I have to be as direct and clear and unequivocal as possible (short of fully raging on them). <br />The message is simple: circumcision is wrong, it is unethical (and no net benefit of course), it is not your body, and you must not do it. Period. No mistakes. No fuzzy judgment. No risk of misplaced emphasis on what 'facts' or issues are most relevant. It's done. They get it.<br />And if they get it and do it anyway, they are not my kind of people. I will disown any family member that does this, permanently. I don't think this is extreme. Genital mutilation is extreme and intactivism is about waking people up and making this fact clear to people who just passively accept it as normal and harmless. <br />The responsibility on me then is to be sure I deliver the information and do it well. Having printed materials is fine but since the message is succinct, oral is fine. I only present web or other materials if there are points of fact that they need to see verified. <br /><br />Other tips: <br />- I think it is best to speak to parents individually, and not together, as that will totally affect the outcome. I'm pretty sure I failed once because I talked to mother and father at the same time, and mother influenced the decision because she didn't like what she was hearing and dad eventually went along with her desires. Parents can also feel self conscious hearing this information infront of their partners, especially if one is circumcised!<br />- Phone calls over email. Talking in person over phone calls. Again, we often don't want to intrude, so we try to be diplomatic and careful with a polite email. But intruding (for a good cause) is exactly what we're doing, so do it well and do it all the way, without reservation. Emails are easy to ignore and to misinterpret. Phone calls deliver a message beter. In person allows for clearest communication. I have no shame telling it as it is to parents who are about to mutilate their babies. I don't cross lines into indecency, but come on, we need to get REAL about this. I will not be the one to squelch my emotions to be polite, and sit idly by. I value human rights over fake friendship. <br />- It's understandable to be more cautious if it is a co-worker. I would simply print out a tidy, compact information pamphlet and leave it at that.Denizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04561460785523465051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4299230645606646130.post-52864838103139886142012-06-12T09:52:09.396-07:002012-06-12T09:52:09.396-07:00Good for you for being persistent. Hopefully she ...Good for you for being persistent. Hopefully she will consider the information and respect the love and concern that motivated you to send it. I never dreamed I'd be so outspoken about something but, like you, I can't live with the alternative. You never know who you might be able to make a difference with.Jeff in AZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00008630175548804302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4299230645606646130.post-6164528455847534482012-06-12T04:25:02.976-07:002012-06-12T04:25:02.976-07:00I am going through this right now with a cousin wh...I am going through this right now with a cousin who is due with her first child, a boy, in August. My first, very lighthearted e-mail to her was ignored. I just ordered her and her husband a Prepuce & Circumcision info pack. Right now, I do not know how this is going to go. I am praying for the best. I am going to do what I can because I learned the hard way with another very good friend a couple of years ago, and I swore I'd never sit back without speaking up again, esp with someone I know and love :(Wendyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03196785286239736393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4299230645606646130.post-83834258857487260942012-06-11T10:50:42.518-07:002012-06-11T10:50:42.518-07:00So true. I like to think I'm a little better ...So true. I like to think I'm a little better at these conversations than I used to be but I can still feel like my heart rate going up every time I bring up the subject with someone.Jeff in AZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00008630175548804302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4299230645606646130.post-76537246687122202922012-06-11T10:49:04.130-07:002012-06-11T10:49:04.130-07:00Exactly. If their decision-making process was gui...Exactly. If their decision-making process was guided by reason they would offer a rational, emotion-free argument in response. The thing is even when people cite things like the bogus AIDS study or worries about UTIs as "reasons" for circumcising their child, when you really explore the matter with them it turns out circumcision is always first and foremost a cultural (IE non-rational) decision. They may use poorly researched medical evidence to make themselves feel better about their decision but typically that isn't why they circumcised him in the first place. When we question their decision to circumcise they feel uncomfortable, frightened, and, above all, resentful to us for making them feel that way.Jeff in AZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00008630175548804302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4299230645606646130.post-45282531453092109522012-06-10T19:45:37.803-07:002012-06-10T19:45:37.803-07:00They want to live the lie, and feel good about doi...They want to live the lie, and feel good about doing something bad. When you provide facts, they feel compelled to attack you because they have no rational defense for what they are doing..joerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06098715961832213467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4299230645606646130.post-38811527437317369332012-06-10T19:33:20.288-07:002012-06-10T19:33:20.288-07:00Sometimes the hardest thing is to control oneself....Sometimes the hardest thing is to control oneself. LOL sometimes you HAVE TO rehearse a script so that you don't overreact and do something that you might later regret.joerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06098715961832213467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4299230645606646130.post-35290120406112103052012-06-10T07:00:04.429-07:002012-06-10T07:00:04.429-07:00This is a bizarre situation I too have encountered...This is a bizarre situation I too have encountered. No matter how kindly you offer education and information about circumcision people will often claim you are attacking them. As if they are somehow the victims and not their sons! It's like they're mad at you for telling them the truth. I suppose they would have rather continued to be in the dark about what circumcision really did to their child and they're angry at us for messing that up. I always try to treat people with kindness as much as I can but in the end protecting babies is the priority, not protecting parents' feelings.Jeff in AZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00008630175548804302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4299230645606646130.post-55307835303643701952012-06-10T06:47:45.672-07:002012-06-10T06:47:45.672-07:00"I lived for many years in ignorance of the i..."I lived for many years in ignorance of the insidious way that it has impacted my life both physically and psychologically" Well put. I think this was true for me too and probably for a LOT of circumcised men. Indeed, it is ignorance of how circumcision really impacts men that facilitates the continuation of this abhorrent practice.Jeff in AZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00008630175548804302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4299230645606646130.post-84256746769348319352012-06-10T06:44:47.732-07:002012-06-10T06:44:47.732-07:00I'm so glad you enjoy the blog. I would be ha...I'm so glad you enjoy the blog. I would be happy to post the next entry on your wall.Jeff in AZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00008630175548804302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4299230645606646130.post-56265859026392137332012-06-10T06:43:40.726-07:002012-06-10T06:43:40.726-07:00Yeah, I don't know which is worse, the dismiss...Yeah, I don't know which is worse, the dismissive attitude that circumcision is "no big deal" or these people that criticize the looks of intact boys/men. I keep waiting for someone in my extended family to do the latter. I've already rehearsed storming out so I don't punch someone in the nose. :)Jeff in AZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00008630175548804302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4299230645606646130.post-70604029317993567762012-06-10T01:48:04.559-07:002012-06-10T01:48:04.559-07:00I normally don't voice my opinion but I know h...I normally don't voice my opinion but I know how you feel. There was mention of a mom having to get her sons penis cut again at 10 months of age. I was appalled! Then when I voiced my opinion on that this topic should be asked elsewhere I was deemed as attacking by moms who SUPPORT this behavior. I was sadly removed from the group this took place in and banned. I am not sorry for saying she is traumatizing her child because she IS! I just feel sorry that something like that got be banned from a group I greatly loved. I find it funny how moms who are against intactivists say we are over bearing and jump on them for what they do, but what exactly is it when they provoke me? I was singled out for finding the act of a 10 month old boy going through such a traumatizing thing and provoked and antagonized. Hypocrites. How can they not think about the pain that child will go through and not feel bad?Electra Reedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00665138121727097112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4299230645606646130.post-85105303351514306952012-06-09T23:47:03.647-07:002012-06-09T23:47:03.647-07:00Further to my comment in response to your last ent...Further to my comment in response to your last entry I agree wholeheartedly with Judith. The fact that you warned them that their son might confront them in years to come and yet they still chose to circumcise him is indeed arrogance and callousness of the utmost degree. As a victim of neonatal circumcision (although I lived for many years in ignorance of the insidious way that it has impacted my life both physically and psychologically) I now have a deeply cynical view of life and the motives of others. "How great is the frailty of human nature which is ever prone to evil."Patrick Smythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15407002050731086792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4299230645606646130.post-44850132357619162702012-06-09T10:53:00.056-07:002012-06-09T10:53:00.056-07:00Another good one. Jeff, you HAVE to let us know wh...Another good one. Jeff, you HAVE to let us know when you have new blog entries. They are too good not to share with other intactivists. Feel free to post on our wall, sometimes I miss some new things and this would help a lot. ~Shirin. http://www.facebook.com/BoysDeserveBetterShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04025491988540992571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4299230645606646130.post-88109050994188847012012-06-09T10:47:41.087-07:002012-06-09T10:47:41.087-07:00I know exactly how you feel! Only thing is that I...I know exactly how you feel! Only thing is that I refuse to deal with people who mutilate their sons or approve of that mutilation. Especially when they tell me that my son is gross and ugly because I didn't let him go under the knife. Dang ignorant and perverted people!Judithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14034193953889565815noreply@blogger.com